Talk:Joe Johnson (snooker player)

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Typo?

Resolved

 – Yes, it was an error.

The old infobox listed the name as "John Johnson", although neither the text nor the title suggests this is his name. Was that a typo, or is his real name "John", but everyone calls him "Joe"? I used "Joe Johnson" in the new box. Abigail 20:18, May 19, 2004 (UTC)

My typo, I think. --Auximines 08:00, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Joe Johnson (snooker player). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120313150539/http://www.cajt.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/HistoricRank2.html to http://www.cajt.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/HistoricRank2.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 12:34, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Season format

Hello, there appears to be different season formats in the article, would be good to standardise. Uses 2020–01, 2020–2021, 2020/21 and 2020/2021 formats at different points in article - I would go with the 2020–01 format as per football articles, but may be different for snooker. Keith D (talk) 18:43, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

I've made some edits, so hopefully there is consistency in the body text. The table headings and notes are standard in these articles (which doesn't mean they can't be changed). Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 00:49, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This review is transcluded from Talk:Joe Johnson (snooker player)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: MaxnaCarta (talk · contribs) 05:46, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

General comments

Lead

• Added "The British"
• Removed hyphen from "quarterfinals"
• Linked English to England

Early life

• two commas added
• Johnson was National to Johnson was the National
• and three times Yorkshire Champion changed to and a three-time Yorkshire Champion

Early years

• Capitalised championship
• Hyphen to 100-break added
• Removed comma
• Hyphen to "last-16" added

1982

• Fixed spelling of opening
• Johnson recorded 10–0 whitewash changed to Johnson recorded a 10–0 whitewash

Thanks for those, MaxnaCarta. MOS:SNOOKER (yes, there is one!) says that there should be a hyphen in quarter-finals, so am I OK to amend those? BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 10:12, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

I'll put the hyphens back, sorry for that! — MaxnaCarta  ( 💬 • 📝 ) 02:36, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

I've done another copyedit, replacing those hyphens and adding some commas. Advantage was also misspelled so I fixed that. Other than those, this now meets the core criteria for GA and so I will pass. — MaxnaCarta  ( 💬 • 📝 ) 02:41, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Spot Checks

• [20] - I mean, not quite. It does not confirm he was inside the 1983 masters; rather, the reference confirms he was not within the eight-player group. However, this is not a controversial fact. The linked article confirms he was within the 1983 masters, so this is fine.

• I've added a source (and tweaked the text from "eight" to "six"). I've also wikilinked sources where I could, and added a few extra clipppings. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 10:13, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

• [32a] - Y
• [32b] - Y
• [23] - Y
• [42c] - Y (Impressive, the article used the exact adjective of "attacking", I love this source-text integrity
• [48a] - Y
• [52b] - Y
• [86] - Y
• [87] - Y

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

FAC notes

I was going to post these on the FAC, but it's been withdrawn, so I might as well post them here in case they're useful.

• The "losing to" parentheses in the first paragraph of the lead are a little distracting. I think they can be justified for the finals, but I would suggest dropping the one for the semi-final, and both the parenthetical comments in the third paragraph of the lead. I would lead in the mention of Dennis Taylor since in a way the first-round loss is more notable than the semi-final losses.
• "who later taught his stepson snooker, when Johnson was four": "later" is redundant with "when Johnson was four".
• I started reading through the "Professional career" section, and then decided to go and read some other snooker FAs to see how they handle run-of-the-mill tournament reporting. I looked at Terry Griffiths, John Pulman, and Cliff Thorburn, and generally those articles only give round-by-round results when there's something interesting to say about the tournament. For example, in Terry Griffiths, the account of the 1979 World Championship gives all the details because it's his first tournament (and championship) win. For the 1979 Canadian Open Griffith's article only says he lost in the final. The extended discussion of his loss at the 1980 World Championship is interesting because it's the first example of the Crucible curse. In Johnson's article, most of the "Early years" descriptions have no particular interest; it's simply a listing of wins and whatever loss ended his tournament. I think these descriptions should be much abbreviated: the reader can click through to the individual tournament articles if they want to know the round-by-round information. By contrast I think the account you give of Johnson defeating Davis in 1986 is fine; more detail is justified for the most important win of Johnson's career, and there are interesting factoids distributed through the account. (Though I don't think you need to say who he lost to at the 1985 Matchroom Trophy or1986 Mercantile Credit Classic.) Skimming the tournament descriptions later in the article, those look OK -- I think it's just the "Early years" section and to a lesser degree the "1982-1985" section that need attention.
• "Once again his opponent in the final was Davis, who defeated him." Suggest cutting "who defeated him"; the whole next paragraph gives that information.
• "outside the top 16 after five years in that group": suggest "for the first time in five years".
• "Johnson had heart and eye problems during the 1990s, although he continued to play in qualifying events." Why say "qualifying events"? It sounds from the surrounding narrative as if he continued to play in tournaments generally.

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:59, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for this, Mike Christie. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:26, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Review comments

Comments FAO User:BennyOnTheLoose

• Too many Johnsons throughout, where pronoun "he" could be used – I can remedy this in my copyedit.
• I tend to think it's best to give a player's name in full the first time it appears in a new section, then just surname if it appears again in same section. Again, I can incorporate changes in my copyedit if you agree. This applies to Tony Knowles (x3), Terry Griffiths (x3), Cliff Wilson (x3), Cliff Thorburn, Steve Davis (x2), Stephen Hendry, Jimmy White, Tony Meo (x3), Mike Hallett (x3), Kirk Stevens, Ian Williamson, Bill Werbeniuk, Ray Edmonds, Murdo MacLeod, Graham Miles, John Spencer and Warren King. Strangely, Eddie Charlton, Matt Gibson, Willie Thorne are inconsistent with this.

• Sounds good to me. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:52, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Lead

• Would it be better to link English to English people rather than the country England?

• I think this is an MOS:OVERLINK actually ("major examples of the following categories should generally not be linked: Countries (e.g., Brazil/Brazilian..") BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:52, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

• "snooker commentator for Eurosport" – do we need to mention Eurosport here? It might also appear that he was a "snooker player and snooker commentator" for Eurosport, so there's a semantics issue here.

• No and it should be clearer that former professional player but current commentator. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:52, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

• Do we need to mention who he lost to in the first paragraph? It sort of detracts from the subject of the article (Joe!).

• Makes sense to change it. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:52, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

• Need to link ranking final at first mention.

Early life and amateur career

• "His mother was named Margaret, and his father" may be better as "His mother's name was Margaret, and his father"
• Second sentence sounds a bit awkward – maybe try this... "Margaret's second husband was Ken Johnson, who taught his stepson Joe how to play snooker from the age of four."

• Amended per the two points above.

• Was Margaret married to Farooq or were they just in a relationship? If the latter, we can't say "second husband".

• Amended.

• It might be more informative to link TUC, i.e. at the TUC Club in Middlesbrough
• Could link motor mechanic.

• Amended per the two points above.

Early years

• "by 9 frames to 3" is inconsistent with other scorelines, so it would be best as "Johnson lost his opening match at the 1979 UK Championship to Bill Werbeniuk, 3–9."

• Amended.

1985–86 season: World champion

• Suggested wording change: "Johnson had also never won a match at the Crucible Theatre, and was rated a 150–1 outsider" > "Having never won a match at the Crucible Theatre, Johnson was rated a 150–1 outsider..."
• "where he lost 4–5 to Thorburn" should probably also be in brackets to match previous aside about Neal Foulds.
• bookmakers' odds of 2/9 and 5/1 are inconsistent with 150–1 style used previously.

• Amended per the three points above.

• Are you referring to Gordon Burn's book Pocket Money? Should probably state that.

• Yes, it is mentioned in the 1986 edition. so I added in that year, but the page ref is to the 2008 edition. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:52, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Post-World Championship win

• "hoping merely" > "simply hoping" ?
• "the teenaged Stephen Hendry" > "the 18-year-old Stephen Hendry" might be clearer, more specific, if the source allows it.

• Amended per the two points above.

Later career

• "after five years in that group" sounds a bit odd, maybe change to "for the first time in five years"
• Suggested wording change: "won a four-player round-robin event, the 1991 Nescafe Extra Challenge" > "won the 1991 Nescafe Extra Challenge, which was a ..."
• Suggested wording change: "Johnson had heart and eye problems during the 1990s, although he continued to play" > "Despite having heart and eye problems during the 1990s, Johnson continued to play..."

• Amended per the three points above.

• "in February 2004" – surely this should be "in April 2004" !?

• Amended to mention that it was the qualifying competition.

• "the oldest player on the professional snooker circuit" – are we talking about the oldest ever or just the oldest at that point?

• Oldest active professional at that point. Fred Davis was older (79, I think) when he retired from snooker.

Seniors events

• This subsection shouldn't be inside Professional career section because it was after he retired.
• Suggested wording change: "(which was used to determine the winner if each player won one of two frames)" > "used as a tiebreaker in the event of each player winning one of two frames" (and doesn't need to be in brackets).

• Amended per the two points above.

Legacy

• Again, this shouldn't be inside Professional career section because it was after he retired. Maybe combine Seniors events and Legacy subsections into "Post-retirement" or similar?

• Pending; will see if "Legacy" can be expanded.

• State that Everton's 2012 book is called Black Farce and Cue Ball Wizards.
• Suggested wording change: "He found the pressures of World Championship fame difficult, and was" > "Johnson found it difficult to deal with the pressures of WC fame, and he was..."
• What do you mean by 'poorly served'?

• Not enough detail to clarify this, so I removed it.

• Suggested wording change: that "it will be for ... remembered". > "that Johnson would always be remembered for "his shot-making, ... that defined his career."
• "In their book about world champions" > "In their 2005 book about snooker world champions"

• amended per the two points above.

Bibliography

• I think Everton was editor (not author) of "Snooker: The Records".

No other authors are listed, and lots of the text is re-used from Snooker Scene and Everton's other books, as is common for his output. I had never noticed before today, but on one of the front pages there is actually a credit for "Editor: Beatrice Frei". The book is copyrighted to Everton and Guiness Superlatives. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:52, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Rodney Baggins (talk) 18:15, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, Rodney Baggins. I'm happy with all of the suggestions. I'll start with the items where I need to refer back to sources. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:52, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Review comments (March 2025)

@BennyOnTheLoose: Hi there, I've had a good go at this and just about ready to hand over to you. Here are some comments for you to consider.

• Early years: "he defeated Steve Baruda 5–4 after making a 100 break in the first frame" (say that this was in the fifth round?)

• Added a source that says it was the sixth round. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:44, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

• 1985–86 season: World champion: "Davis was considered highly likely to win the title, as reflected in the bookmakers' odds of 2‍–‍9 for Davis and 5‍–‍1 for Johnson." (unsourced sentence)

• Added a ref. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:44, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

• Post-World Championship win: states that he was eliminated before the televised stage in every major tournament (except one) — which one?

• Slightly reworded this as otherwise it would have needed several references. Anyway, I think that mentioning the furtherst round reached rather then whether or not it was televised is probably more relevant. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:10, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

• The whole of para 2 is covered by one source — any alternatives to throw in?

• Added a coule of sources with clippings. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:47, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

• Later career: Please check WSC qualifying was in February 2004 (I'd expect it to have been in April 2004)

Yes it was, see The Guardian report from 12 Feb 2004 (the match is also mentioned in the Daily Telegraph on the same date). BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:47, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

• "He played his last match as a professional later that month" — Qualifying for 2004 Players Championship was in March not Feb!?

• Ah yes, the Snooker Scene article uses "this month" in the article talking about the World Championship qualifying and I must have got confused. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:47, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

• "as the oldest player on the professional snooker circuit at the time" — this is ambiguous. Was he the oldest ever player at the time, or does he still hold the record of being the oldest to have ever remained on the tour? Maybe reword to: "as the oldest player ever to remain on the professional snooker circuit"?

• Not oldest ever (Fred Davis AFAIK). I've reworded but I'm sure you can improve on my attempt. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:47, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

• I don't like the three short top-level sections at the end: Seniors events / Legacy / Other activities. There must be some way of combining or reordering to present things better? I'm having a think about it!! First of all, I think the Legacy section needs to be either expanded or cut out altogether (he's not dead yet!) The third-party comments could be incorporated some other way rather than in a premature Legacy section. Also, the last para of 1985–86 season: World champion should really be moved out and put with the other info lower down.

• I took some action on these but feel free to revert it. I've got hold of a few more books recently so let me see if there's more to add under what I've retitled Reputation. Yes, there must be a better heading than "Other activities". BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 00:06, 9 March 2025 (UTC)

• Would it be possible for you to get more clippings? Times refs. 39, 40, 41, 43, 44, 68. Also Toronto Star (ref.42), Daily Telegraph (ref.119), Birmingham Evening Mail (ref.122)

• It's not possible to add clippings for The Times from The Times Digital Archive, and it's not on Newspapers.com; I swapped a couple of those out. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 00:06, 9 March 2025 (UTC)

• One very notable thing about Johnson (IMO) is that he's come closer to breaking the Crucible Curse than any other player. Should that not be added somewhere? It's mentioned in this Seniors Snooker source (ref.2) but it's not very well worded, and I thought you might have better evidence in one of your books maybe?

• Hendon's 2009 article in Snooker Scene mentions this. As there are so few books from the last few years, that site might be the best source, but I'll check. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 00:06, 9 March 2025 (UTC)
• Ronnie O'Sullivan: "the Crucible Curse... [explanation]... Joe was the one who looked most like doing it. Ken Doherty's the only other man to make the world final the year after first winning it, and he never got as close in 1998 as Joe did in 1987." (O'Sullivan 2023 p.29 ) (O'Sullivan also wrote "Joe Johnson was my first Sheffield crush" (p.260)) BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 11:24, 9 March 2025 (UTC)
• TNT 16 May 2024: "the closest any player came to pulling off the feat since the Crucible first staged the competition in 1977 is Eurosport pundit Joe Johnson," BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 21:43, 9 March 2025 (UTC)

By the way, I must apologise for taking so long to get round to this. You asked me about it before Christmas and I've been sitting on my hands for ages, sorry. All the best for now. Rodney Baggins .talk. 09:53, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

• It was worth the wait! BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 00:06, 9 March 2025 (UTC)

• @Rodney Baggins: I added a bit of background about TV coverage and the popularity of snooker. Trim this if you feel like it. There is some infobox info not mentioned in the text - highest ranking, and nickname. I'll have to do something to the Performance and rankings timeline table for accessibility: I think my least-disliked option so far is like the ones at Alex Higgins, which have only one row per tournament, whether it was ranking or not, with some visible comments like "(Ranking from 1989)". Let me know what you think about the tables. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 13:42, 10 March 2025 (UTC)