Talk:Syro-Malabar Church

SM Church: Denomination or not

What I understand as your pov is that you recognise the Catholic Church as a denomination and the various Eastern Catholic Churches, in your view, are simply subgroups. Well I don't agree with that pov. Numerous sources in the article proves that the SMC is a denomination. Similarly each of the ECCs is a denomination. Maronites comprise a particular denomination of Christians in the Middle East, similarly Chaldeans, Syriacs, Melkites. The Wikipedia definitions for the word church are given in the disambiguation page church, wherein it is defined as a building of Christian worship, congregation or denomination. The definition for Christian denomination is given as: A Christian denomination is a distinct religious body within Christianity that comprises all church congregations of the same kind, identifiable by traits such as a name, particular history, organization, leadership, theological doctrine, worship style and, sometimes, a founder. It is a secular and neutral term, generally used to denote any established Christian church. Here, the SMC satisfies all the criteria, (1) it is within Christianity, (2) it is comprised of congregations (parishes/dioceses/provinces), (3) well it has its own distinctive name, (4) it has distinct history from that of the CC, (5) it has a well defined organisation, (6) it has its own leadership (the major archbishop being it's worldwide head), (7) East Syriac theological doctrines, (8) Syro-Malabar Rite liturgy and worship style and most notably Saint Thomas as founder (though legendary). Therefore the SMC is indeed a denomination. Logosx127 (talk) 03:08, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

@Logosx127: If Numerous sources in the article proves that the SMC is a denomination, find a reliable source that does so. Otherwise, you're creating your own definition of denomination and making errant claims to fit the Syro-Malabar Church within it (see Begging the question). By the definition given above, the Society of Jesus could be classified as a denomination. ~ Pbritti (talk) 01:15, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

That's a ridiculous comparison. The SJ isn't a denomination because it is simply a religious monastic organisation. No one is born into it. And, I am not making a brand new definition, it is already given in Wikipedia. I think you thoroughly require an orientation here.Logosx127 (talk) 07:28, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

To list down two of them,
the official website says: The Syro-Malabar Catholic Church is one of the 23 Eastern (Oriental) Catholic Churches in full communion with Rome. It is the largest Eastern Catholic Church after the Ukrainian Church and the largest of the Saint Thomas Christian (Nazrani) denominations with 5 million believers.
KC ZACHARIAH, 2016 says: Among the denominations in the Christian community, the Syro-. Malabar Catholics are the most dispersed denomination (Religious Denominations of Kerala). Logosx127 (talk) 08:06, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

@Pbritti Do you want further source quotations. I can do so if you insist. Logosx127 (talk) 04:13, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Sure! ~ Pbritti (talk) 05:30, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Well, these are some webpages which I found in a brief online search.
1 Cardinal Mar George Alencherry, the head of Kerala's prominent Christian denomination, the Syro Malabar Catholic Church..
2 Telangana, Bishop Raphael Thattil has been elected as major archbishop of the powerful Syro-Malabar Church. The church is the largest denomination of Catholics in India and prominent among the 22 oriental Catholic churches that are in full communion with Rome.
3 Though the Syro-Malabar Church has more than 3.6 million members, more than half a million of them are scattered outside Kerala state, where the church remains the largest Christian denomination.
4 A day after the Syro-Malabar Church's Public Affairs Commission rallied behind Bishop Mar Joseph Kallarangatt in the 'narcotic jihad' row, the denomination 's largest religious publication, Sathyadeepam, has struck a contradictory not
5 One church of the Syro-Malabar denomination in Kerala's Wayanad district has offered 10,000 rupeela's 00) for a couple's fifth child.
6 the holy communion of two souls in the traditional way of this denomination of Christianity.
7 The Syro-Malabar Church, the largest Christian denomination in Kerala, on Wednesday
8Kerala’s Syro-Malabar Church To date, the denomination owns 22 churches in the US.Logosx127 (talk) 17:24, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

See, this raises an important question: do you think that this is perhaps more likely a common misnomer, or that each sui iuris church is its own denomination, or that it's just the Syro-Malabar? ~ Pbritti (talk) 02:07, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Obviously each of the ECCs is a distinct denomination. Maronites, Melkite catholics, Coptic catholics, Ukranian Greek catholics, Syro-Malabarese, Syro-Malankarese and so on. They are Catholic Christian in religion. The SMC officially calls itself a denomination and the state legally accepts it's self designation. Therefore there's no confusion over whether it's a denomination or not.Logosx127 (talk) 10:42, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I think you're way out of your element there. You'd need to prove that to a lot of other people who won't agree. ~ Pbritti (talk) 12:34, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't need to prove anything of this sort. The church website clearly says that it is a denomination and the state authorities legally accepts it's self designation. Individual opinion, let it be yours or mine, cannot change what's given in the official records and websites. There is nothing more to discuss here on the topic. I have already substantiated my position with the church's official website, and sources which are numerous and precise to the matter. Logosx127 (talk) 14:30, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia has a tendency to ignore legal definitions like this, especially when they directly contradict scholarly accepted definitions. You're attempting to POV-push, utilizing local definitions extrapolated to a global context. If you want to challenge the precedent set over a decade ago, give it a shot, but don't argue that your solitary disagreement justifies interrupting multiple pages. ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:37, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

That is such a ridiculous argument. Actually your argument mostly applies better to your own POV edits, given the official website, online sources provided here and multitude of sources yet to be included, all supporting my argument. You are unilaterally pushing your POV, which would have been okay if you could support it with some sources atleast. Rather you're just putting vague claims of scholarly accepted definitions and sources, none of which you have been able to provide till now. I think you yourself is the said scholar and sources, if I must guess. Meanwhile catholic historian and orientalist Dietmar Winkler also classifies the SMC as a denomination in the Syriac World (2018). I opt to follow the official website and scholarly sources on this matter. Logosx127 (talk) 18:42, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Since you seem convinced that you have stumbled across something with consequences for hundreds of articles, why don't you make note of this at a relevant noticeboard and start a relevant discussion there? ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:52, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't feel it's necessary, on the contrary I find my view totally agreeing with existing Wikipedia consensus and style. Catholicism is a religion and the Catholic Church is a denominational family (ecclesiastically, communion) just like the Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox and/or Protestant. Logosx127 (talk) 18:58, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Why are you unwilling to raise this elsewhere, considering every other sui iuris church is described as such and not as a denomination? Are you realizing the argument won't stand up to outside scrutiny? ~ Pbritti (talk) 19:07, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Well, I have already replied to this before. Logosx127 (talk) 19:25, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Please check the seven sources used for defining a denomination within the article Christian denomination. A denomination, as the Wikipedia definition states isn't a religious term. It is a secular and neutral term that is frequently used as a misnomer. In the context of Christian religion, a denomination is a family of many similar individual/national/particular churches that are bound together historically, though doctrine, organization, leadership and several other aspects. The Church of Nigeria is a national church that is part of the global Anglican church (denomination). The Church of Sweden is a national church that is part of the global Lutheran church (denomination). The Methodist Church of New Zealand is a national church that is part of the global Methodism (denomination). The Assemblies of God is an individual church that is part of global Pentecostalism (denomination). The Russian Orthodox Church is a national church that is part of the larger Eastern Orthodox Church (denomination). Likewise, the Syro-Malabar Church is a constituent particular church of the Roman Catholic church (denomination), for which the Pope is the supreme head. In other words, there may be tens of thousands of individual churches, but only a handful of denominations. I agree that the distinctions between a denomination and an individual/national/particular church is blurred to many people and there are many resources including Wikipedia articles that wrongly call an individual church a denomination.--Macinderum (talk) 08:11, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Evidently you are confused about these. You are actually confusing Denominational families (Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Church of the East, etc) with actual denominations (Syro-Malabar, Latin, Melkite, Maronite, Chaldean, etc (all part of Catholic denominational family), Russian Orthodox, Antiochian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Bulgarian Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Georgian Orthodox etc. (all being part of Eastern Orthodox denominational family), Coptic Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox, Armenian Orthodox etc. (All being Oriental Orthodox in denominational family), Church of England, Marthoma Church (belonging to Anglican denominational family)) Denominational families and actual denominations are two different things. Denominational families are aggregates of similar denominations. These denominations can't be mistermed as national churches. Many of these have international jurisdiction and membership. Denomination is determined in terms of common doctrine, liturgy, culture and self-identification. With respect to the Syro-Malabar Church, its official website and governmental records calls it a denomination and there are a multitude of sources available in the public online field as well as academic and scholarly literature, all supporting the fact that the SMC is indeed a denomination and at the same time part of the Catholic Church denominational family. The entire discourse can be made simple with just one question asked, how would a member of the SMC self identify: as a Catholic or as a Syro Malabar Catholic? The answer is: as a Syro-Malabar Catholic. That's the entire point. Religiously and based on communion he is Catholic, but denominationally he is Syro-Malabar Catholic. His religion or denominational family is indeed headed by the pope, but he isn't part of the denomination which is liturgically, culturally and theologically headed by the pope.Logosx127 (talk) 14:00, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

I understand your viewpoint. Let me cite two sources (1 and 2) used in the article Christian denomination to define the concept. According to these sources, the Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Anglicanism, Lutheranism, Methodism, Baptist, Presbyterianism, Pentecostalism etc. are major Christian denominations. Most importantly, the Roman Catholic Church is one single denomination headed by the Roman pontiff. I have not found any source that says that it is a loose coalition of 24 completely independent denominations. Do you have any authoritative source that says so? Even for the Eastern Catholic Churches the Pope is the ultimate authority. The patriarchs and major archbishops of Eastern Catholic Churches are of lower rank and subordinate to the Pope. Unfortunately, there seems to be a some confusion on this topic that reflects in available sources, because of which anyone can find sources to support their point of view. Personally, I feel that this discussion needs to take place in a different forum with more visibility. We cannot change the meaning of Christian denomination based on the notions of two or three editors. If you are able to gain consensus in your favour, I'll accept it.--Macinderum (talk) 08:22, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Although I totally understand what you are saying, I cannot agree wholly with it. First of all you need to distinguish between denominational family and individual denomination. Of course, the Roman Catholic Church or the Latin Catholic Church is a denominational led by the pope, spiritually, culturally, liturgically and doctrinally. But the remaining 23 Eastern Catholic Churches are distinct churches and denominations which, by recognising the pope as their overall leader, forms a denominational family called the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is unified by common religious faith, and most importantly the pope as overall leader. Meanwhile, each of the Eastern Catholic Churches is united within itself not just by common religious faith and overall leader, but also by common doctrine, culture, liturgy, spirituality and tradition. Hence the Latin and the Eastern Catholic Churches are denominations while the Catholic Church is their denominational family. For example, let's just look into the Syro-Malabar Church. The Syro-Malabar Church has a distinct religious liturgy very different from that used by the pope and the Roman Latin Catholic Church. SMC has its own theology and doctrine. Nestorius is a condemned heretic in the RC Church but he is a venerated saint in the SMC and one of the liturgical prayers is named after him. Rosary, unleavened bread, clerical celibacy are other unique features of the RCC which the ECCs do not follow. For a Western reader, Catholic and Roman Catholic are synonymous, but it's not the case in places where Eastern Catholic Churches are present. This differentiation is more profound in the case of the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches, the Church of the East, and many Anglican Churches, like the Church of England and Marthoma Church.
At the same time I totally disagree with you on your comment "anyone can find sources to support their point of view". It is not about anyone finding some random sources available online. The sources I provided are of atmost important such as the OFFICIAL WEBSITE of the Church and legal as well as academic sources. You cannot simply disregard those sources just because you think in a different way or you have a dissenting pov. Hope that's clear. Logosx127 (talk) 12:37, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

See, if a Christian body is united by a single leader and hierarchy that can (and does) act across all portions of the church [note: it's a single church, unlike in Anglicanism, which Macinderum appears to mistakenly imply has a single "Anglican Church"], that's a single denomination. The pope can impose decisions upon the Syro-Malabar (something the Archbishop of Canterbury can't do to the Episcopal Church in the United States). The Syro-Malabar are a sui iuris church—that is objectively true. Claims they are a denomination are marginal and contradictory. Barring any further support for this solitary attempt to subvert longstanding and widespread consensus, the previous norm should be restored. ~ Pbritti (talk) 04:29, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

I am just following the OFFICIAL WEBSITE of the church and official records. I don't have any problem if you wish to continue dictating in a fantasy world. The Catholic Church, as I have already said, is a denominational family led by the Pope. The Latin Church or the Roman Catholic Church is the distinctive denomination led by the pope. The words such as Church, sui juris Church etc. are purely religious or ecclesiastical terminologies which cannot be applied generally. The secular and general terms in use are religion, denominational family and denomination. Here the religion is Christianity, denominational family is the Catholic Church and the denomination is the Syro-Malabar Church.
Your comment: The pope can impose decisions upon the Syro-Malabar is partially untrue. The pope simply cannot impose his decisions in every field. The bishops are to be appointed by the Patriarch and the Patriarch is the supreme authority on liturgy. That does not mean that pope is devoid of his powers, the pope simply do not have that extend of powers in the ECC's as he does in the Latin Church. Just because a person in charge has authority at different strata, the strata does not get mixed up into one. Authority of the pope as the head of the Roman/Latin Catholic Church (appointment of bishops, legislations, doctrinal and liturgical promulgations etc.) is different from the authority he holds as the Head of the Catholic Church. For another example, the British Monarch is the head of the State of not just the United Kingdom, but also the entire fourteen Commonwealth Realms including Canada, Australia and the New Zealand. He can potentially exercise a wide range of authority, though almost always delegated to the respective Governor Generals. This simply does not mean that those are colonies or devoid of sovereign statehood. Similarly, the Pope enjoys universal jurisdiction throughout the Catholic Church Communion or denominational family. But almost all of the day to day administration of the ECCs (including appointment of bishops, administrators, regular legislations, liturgical promulgations etc.) is undertaken by their patriarchs, who act in their own capacity as 'Head of the Church' and not as some kind of a delegate of the pope. Denomination is not determined by who controls authority (especially outside the Catholic Church denominational family), but by the liturgy, culture, doctrine, spirituality, history and self-identification. The SMC identifies itself as a denomination, state authorities recognise it as such and the authoritative academic sources who study the SMC in detail also classifies it as a denomination. I just do not need to disregard these most important sources in favour of some old, western oriented (the problem is not the fact that these are western, but the inherent confusion they have over the Roman Catholic/Latin denomination with entire Catholic Church denominational family) and non-academic tertiary sources. Logosx127 (talk) 09:07, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Again, barring something that firmly demonstrates that this isn't simply a fluke of nomenclature as used in India, you will need consensus in your favor to overturn the preexisting consensus. Given that the Catholic Church is consistently listed as a denomination across over a thousand articles, I please understand a broader consensus would be necessary. ~ Pbritti (talk) 12:01, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

There's no such consensus as of now in Wikipedia. I have seen multiple pages, files and articles which explicitly and correctly list the Catholic Church as a denominational family. For example see List of Christian denominations, wherein the Syro-Malabar Church is listed along with the Roman/Latin and other Eastern Catholic Churches as denominations under the subheading 'Catholic Church' (denominational family). Christianity can be taxonomically divided into six main groups: the Church of the East, Oriental Orthodoxy, Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, Protestantism, and Restorationism. Within these six main traditions are various Christian denominations (for example, the Coptic Orthodox Church is an Oriental Orthodox denomination). Note that Roman Catholicism (meaning Catholicism obviously) is listed not as a denomination but as a tradition. Similarly Oriental Orthodoxy is listed as a tradition and Coptic Orthodox as a denomination within it.
I do not think I need to create a new consensus since my view totally consistent with that explicitly favoured here in Wikipedia. However there are obviously a number of editors here, including you, who confuses the Catholic Church with the Roman/Latin Catholic Church and cannot differentiate between denominational family and denomination. You simply cannot disregard the OFFICIAL WEBSITE and the official and academic records to foster your POV. Logosx127 (talk) 14:31, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Roman Catholicism is listed as a “tradition” because wikipedia is a secular source. Polish National Church or Old Catholic Churches are an example. These churches do not accept the primacy of the pope but keep liturgical aspects. 207.96.32.81 (talk) 22:55, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

It's been more than a week. Nobody else agrees. Unless you want this to go elsewhere for discussion, I think we can safely say this conversation has been exhausted. ~ Pbritti (talk) 23:47, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia already agrees, no matter what your POV is. Christianity can be taxonomically divided into six main groups: the Church of the East, Oriental Orthodoxy, Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, Protestantism, and Restorationism. Within these six main traditions are various Christian denominations (for example, the Coptic Orthodox Church is an Oriental Orthodox denomination). Logosx127 (talk) 00:49, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Ah, I see, you think sui iuris is as much autonomy as an autocephalous church. Interesting, but not true. Anyhow, you again failed to get support here and found two editors who actively disagreed. Let it go or find somewhere else to take it up. ~ Pbritti (talk) 02:14, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

The SMC has already been listed as a denomination in numerous Wikipedia articles and your disapproval or another random user, who wakes up from their long slumber just inorder to put a disapproval is not going to change this fact. And stop putting your words into my mouth. What I have said is what I have said, the SMC is indeed a denomination. If you want to prove otherwise, create consensus elsewhere and come back.Logosx127 (talk) 07:09, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

What would your response be to 14 eparchy articles recognizing the Catholic Church as the denomination of the Syro-Malabar Church? Or to the Handbook of Denominations–"the gold standard for reference works about religious bodies in America"–describing the Latin, Syro-Malabar, Ukrainian Greek Catholic, Syriac Catholic, and Ruthenian Greek Catholic Churches all as part of the same denomination (the Catholic Church)? It would seem that references to the Syro-Malabar Church as a denomination are dismissed by scholars of Christian denominations. ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:47, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

With this latest reply of yours, I have come to the conclusion that there's no point in a discussion with you as your arguments are seemingly cunning and ridiculous. All these denomination Catholic Church, sui juris church Syro-Malabar were actually put by you yourself very recently as proven from [1] [2] [3] This proves its simply your personal, biased and isolated POV and original research. If you were honestly looking for the existing Wikipedia consensus, you should have considered List of Christian denominations, and Christian denomination for reference, were the Syro-Malabar Church has been already listed as a denomination. If you are looking outside for reliable sources, the tertiary sources are of much less value compared to academic secondary sources such as the Syriac World (2019), an extremely important reliable source used as the main source in multiple articles in Wikipedia, wherein the Syro-Malabar Church is mentioned as a denomination. Thirdly, the SMC's own OFFICIAL WEBSITE too holds itself to he a denomination. This makes all your arguments as baseless as a house of cards, especially taking your own edits and masquerading those as result of consensus. If you genuinely want to change the existing Wikipedia consensus and list the Catholic Church as a denomination instead of Christian tradition/denominational family and the SMC as a non-denomination instead of the present status of denomination, you should first discuss on relevant articles and spaces elsewhere where you would get better visibility and make corresponding changes in the consensus. If you do so, you can potentially change this article in the similar fashion. But until then, the SMC will remain a denomination, no matter what your POV is. Logosx127 (talk) 23:18, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Let's allow others to answer. ~ Pbritti (talk) 13:53, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Well, that's a good move. Let's follow the consensus. But I believe it would have been better if you had opened the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Christianity where it would have been visible to a larger audience. Logosx127 (talk) 14:48, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

I encouraged you to open a discussion elsewhere six days ago. I selected the forum with the highest likelihood of expert editors participation. Thus far, three editors have disagreed with you. So, I'd say we should follow the consensus, too. ~ Pbritti (talk) 14:53, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Not under a biased title for sure. As I've already said, how'd you expect a Catholic to say that his church isn't one? Logosx127 (talk) 15:32, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Look at WP:OR. No reliable source considers sui-iuris churches to be separate denominations.207.96.32.81 (talk) 22:50, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Dispute 15 June

The official name of the Syro-Malabar Church according to its official documents is Syro-Malabar Major Archiepiscopal Church. The official press releases published in the official Facebook page: The Synodal Media Commission https://www.facebook.com/100064692366556/posts/pfbid0xNUjsymV5xEHZAhCTVkaiXDkNghHkJC8w5uEPYCXBgg9GUfiS8G3DDhmdsG9ASqol/?app=fbl https://www.facebook.com/100064692366556/posts/pfbid0BhuXojLf4yiB3DszaBh8vdfj1H7s7shQy8w6bgBdVJ5EXMbtrgTG9y3ZJPnPxwocl/?app=fbl https://www.facebook.com/100064692366556/posts/pfbid053rBbJMMHL7wVgCZNjcyTMyRiwJxVmxAsnJQFxtxirRCWQCBZKd4rTshSgCiL6Y6l/?app=fbl https://www.facebook.com/100064692366556/posts/pfbid02CByMibQaEKTzEw8RxLd6mG2S4sUvLadkVvpjiHxnojwKakvNZwEyGiLsmNeMTpotl/?app=fbl

The Synodal Public Affairs Commission: https://www.facebook.com/100064692366556/posts/pfbid0JcAKnWSfYWWW9yiybUNE1dHwpdVC5BaUDVSS38MvkHoSKSQyvQzS5PNzmT4RvRZml/?app=fbl https://www.facebook.com/100064692366556/posts/pfbid0EqrG8965tvvMVmSs4hZCLgtGiKX17tXGi6QGaPNtHSJCKEZxtLLQ2sU3BSJfgK3vl/?app=fbl Logosx127 (talk) 00:58, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

The Particular Laws of the Syro-Malabar Church (2003): Published under the title: BULLETIN OF THE SYRO-MALABAR MAJOR ARCHIEPISCOPAL CHURCH

Part 2 clause 1: The sources of the present Code of Particular Law of the Syro-Malabar Major Archiepiscopal Church are many and varied. (page 8) Art. 4- All and solely the ordained bishops of the Syro-Malabar Major Archiepiscopal Church whether eparchial, titular or emeritus, constitutedinside or outside the territorial limits of the Syro-Malabar Major Archiepiscopal Church, Art. 9 - The eparchial bishop shall celebrate Holy Qurbana for the people of the eparchy entrusted to him on all days of obligation of the Syro-Malabar Major Archiepiscopal Church (c. 198; Article 156 §1). Art. 10-The administrator of an eparchy has the right to an allowance as per custom of the Syro-Malabar Major Archiepiscopal Church (c. 230 §1). etc. Logosx127 (talk) 01:17, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

The Vatican

• Papal letter dated 22 March 2022:

The Synod of Bishops of the Syro-Malabar Major Archiepiscopal Church, the superior authority of your Church. [4]

• 15 January 2020

The Synod of Bishops of the Syro-Malabar Major Archiepiscopal Church, Yet again,

Election of auxiliary bishop of the eparchy of Palghat, India The Synod of Bishops of the Syro-Malabar Major Archiepiscopal Church [5] Logosx127 (talk) 01:30, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Almost every single document promulgated by the church explicitly utilizes "Syro-Malabar Church" or "Syro-Malabar Catholic Church". The document you cited, the The Particular Laws of the Syro-Malabar Church not only uses "Syro-Malabar Church" in the name of the document but also has this very clear explanation of the official name on page 7 in Part 1 of the Preamble: In the meantime the name of the Church by usage in the official documents was changed to Syro-Malabar Church. Further, let's look at the Syro-Malabar Church's most recent press releases:

• Alencherry resignation, 7 December 2023: "Syro-Malabar Church"
• Puthur appointment, 7 December 2023: "Syro-Malabar Church"

Interesting. Let's check some pastoral statements:

• Papal address, 13 May 2024: "Syro-Malabar Church"
• Thattil's first archepiscopal pastoral letter, 22 February 2024: "Syro-Malabar Church"

Huh, I sense a theme. Oh, hey, look, the 2nd edition of the New Catholic Encyclopedia (published 2002, 10 years after the church was granted a major archbishop) says "Syro-Malabar Church" is the official name in the Annuario Pontificio for the major Oriental Catholic group of indigenous Christians in India. Also interesting how the only common names on the church's website are "Syro-Malabar Church" and "Syro-Malabar Catholic Church". It's not even close to the COMMONNAME in any official capacity. ~ Pbritti (talk) 01:50, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Hey, why not add some additional, more recent papal letters that only use "Syro-Malabar Church" and "Syro-Malabar Catholics", since you believe that's the superior authority:

• 13 May 2024
• 10 January 2024
• 7 December 2024

Looks like Rome agrees with the Syro-Malabar Church itself: it's called Syro-Malabar (Catholic) Church. ~ Pbritti (talk) 01:58, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

@Pbritti, The 'Syro-Malabar Church' is obviously the common name. There's no doubt about this fact. But the official full name according to the particular law, vatican documents and the church's official press releases is explicitly Syro-Malabar Major Archiepiscopal Church.

Every press release is produced under the title Syro-Malabar Major Archiepiscopal Church. Logosx127 (talk) 01:58, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

@Logosx127: None of them say "Syro-Malabar Archepiscopal Church". There are some press releases from the "Syro-Malabar Archepiscopal Curia", though—are you misreading that? ~ Pbritti (talk) 02:01, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Some circulars published by the Syro-Malabar Church establishing its official name is "Syro-Malabar Church":

• December 2023
• June 2023
• 5 February 2023
• January 2023

This is settled. ~ Pbritti (talk) 02:17, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

@Pbritti They are all released under Syro-Malabar Major Archiepiscopal Church. I can't help you if you can't read by yourself and continue to dictate in your fantasy world. The Particular laws of the Syro-Malabar Church has the official title, i.e, The Syro-Malabar Major Archiepiscopal Church mentioned 74 times altogether. The shorter, more common title Syro-Malabar Church is mentioned even more. But your fantasy Syro-Malabar Catholic Church is basically Zero times. Logosx127 (talk) 02:18, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

@Logosx127: Read the press releases I linked again. Read them again. They say Curia. Sorry, you're confused. ~ Pbritti (talk) 02:20, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

@Pbritti The curia has a separate Press release letter head titled The Syro-Malabar Major Archiepiscopal Curia. The press releases I shared is of the Syro-Malabar Media Commission and the Syro-Malabar Public Affairs Commission published under Syro-Malabar Major Archiepiscopal Church. You may stop creating misunderstanding here. Logosx127 (talk) 02:27, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

About the official name, the Particular laws of the Syro-Malabar Church has the following besides mentioning the official name, i.e, The Syro-Malabar Major Archiepiscopal Church 74 times:

• The name of the synod of bishops shall be: The Synod of Bishops of the Syro Malabar Major Archiepiscopal Church. (about the supreme authority, i.e., the Episcopal Synod)
• Its footnote says: In the draft of the Statutes published in Synodal News (No. 2, February 1994, pp. 53-67) as well as in the final copy sent to the members of the synod the name of the Syro-Malabar Church was given as Church of St. Thomas Christians (CTC) because there was a proposal to make such a change (cfr. Synodal News, No. 1, August 1993, p. 39 & No. 2, February 1994, p. 31). However for various reasons the proposed change did not take place. Therefore in the present version it has been reversed to the appellation “Syro-Malabar Church” with the addition “Major Archiepiscopal”. That is, Syro-Malabar Major Archiepiscopal Church is the official name.Logosx127 (talk) 02:33, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

@Logosx127: This is about the title of the synod. Considering the 2003 legal document renders it as both names while the press releases from the curia and secondary sources all give the official name as "Syro-Malabar Church" or "Syro-Malabar Catholic Church", this evidently isn't the official name. You've engaged in personal attacks in this thread already. Please accept that you're wrong on this one. ~ Pbritti (talk) 02:38, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

@Pbritti, Actually your the one who has initiated personal attacks and lying here. The official press releases and the particular church laws clearly says Syro-Malabar Major Archiepiscopal Church and that is absolutely the official name no matter how hard you try to lie and misinterpret with strawman arguments. Logosx127 (talk) 02:43, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

I may repeat again, the particular church laws explicitly say 74 times the title Syro-Malabar Major Archiepiscopal Church. Meanwhile you have continuously tried to mislead the readers by claiming that Syro-Malabar Catholic Church is the official usage when it is nowhere in the particular laws or press releases. Logosx127 (talk) 02:45, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Look, I could raise this at the WikiProject talk page, but I think that'll go the same way the denomination discussion did. ~ Pbritti (talk) 02:51, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

That could be yet another example of forum shopping. Discussions to be done here itself. You can instead notify the WikiProject talk pages and it is welcomed. Logosx127 (talk) 03:42, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

It wasn't forum shopping then. It wouldn't be now. Seeing no additional comment, we will keep the article as it was. ~ Pbritti (talk) 03:52, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

You were indeed forum shopping then as it helps you gather like minded editors support who tend to be active there. It is obvious from comparing the results of disputes discussed here and there Logosx127 (talk) 03:58, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

I am adding the exact links and copied text from the press releases in case anyone is still mislead by @Pbritti's replies above.

• The Syro-Malabar Media Commission Letter head says:[6]

SYRO-MALABAR MEDIA COMMISSION
SYRO-MALABAR MAJOR ARCHIEPISCOPAL CHURCH
FR. DR. ANTONY VADAKKEKARA VC SECRETARY, COMMISSION FOR MEDIA PRO, SYRO-MALABAR CHURCH MAR JOSEPH PAMPLANY CHAIRMAN MAR PAULY KANNOOKADAN EPISCOPAL MEMBER MAR SEBASTIAN VANIYAPURACKAL EPISCOPAL MEMBER

• The Syro-Malabar Public Affairs Commission Letter head says:

SYRO-MALABAR MAJOR ARCHIEPISCOPAL CHURCH
PUBLIC AFFAIRS COMMISSION Archbishop Andrews Thazhath Chairman Archbishop Joseph Pamplasy Member Bishop Thomas Tharayil Coneenice Bishop Remigiose Inchananiyil Member Bishop Thomas Chakiath Man Fr. Abraham Kavilpurayidathl Secretary Fr. James Kokkuvayall Ast SecretaryLogosx127 (talk) 03:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Meanwhile the Curia's official Letter head is as under: THE SYRO-MALABAR MAJQR ARCHIEPISCOPAL CURIA

Mount St. Thomas, P.B. No. 3110, P.O. Kakkanad, Kochi - 682 030, Kerala, India Tel: (0484) 2424780, 2424768, 2426235, 2428271 (Dir); Fax: (0484) 2422727 Email: majorarchbishop@gmail.com, chancellor.mount@gmail.com Logosx127 (talk) 04:02, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Both organizations that include "Major Archepiscopal" in the name aren't the church. The church itself just calls itself "Syro-Malabar Church". Unless we see other support for this, we will retain the current version. ~ Pbritti (talk) 04:12, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

None of them is an organisation in its own right, instead they are merely organs of their parent organisation, i.e, the Syro-Malabar Major Archiepiscopal Church. Logosx127 (talk) 04:25, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

You do not have a consensus for the change. Reinserting the material is edit warring and tendentious editing. ~ Pbritti (talk) 01:32, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

It is well sourced and of course reliably sourced. If you still insist on status quo ante, I will seeking administrator intervention here. To find a way out. Logosx127 (talk) 01:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Request for comment on official name

Is the official name of this article's subject Syro-Malabar Church or Syro-Malabar Major Archepiscopal Church? ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:15, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

• Syro-Malabar Church: According to official and secondary sources, this is the primary official name. Below is a quick review of sources:
  • New Catholic Encyclopedia (2002): Syro-Malabar Church is the official name in the Annuario Pontificio for the major Oriental Catholic group of indigenous Christians in India.
  • The Particular Laws of the Syro-Malabar Church (2003): a primary legal document of the church–makes use of Syro-Malabar Church 60 times and Syro-Malabar Major Archiepiscopal Church 74 times. The document's name uses Syro-Malabar Church and Page 7 describes that Syro-Malabar Church has been in continuous official use since the 1950s. Syro-Malabar Major Archiepiscopal Church is described as an acceptable (but not legally adopted) appellation in an editorial footnote on page 79 (this footnote also clearly indicates that the church's synod is the 'Synod of Bishops of the Syro-Malabar Major Archiepiscopal Church').
  • Official website: Uses Syro-Malabar Church in its name. Uses Syro-Malabar Church and Syro-Malabar Catholic Church in its descriptions, with the former by far the most common. Syro-Malabar Church used 8 times and Syro-Malabar Major Archiepiscopal Church used once on "About us" page.
  • Official Facebook page: Uses Syro-Malabar Church in name and Syro-Malabar Catholic Church in description. Reposts material published by the subordinate Syro-Malabar Media Commission that uses Syro-Malabar Major Archiepiscopal Church in its letterhead.
  • Vatican documents: All Vatican documents on the church that were published in the last four months ([7], [8], [9], [10]) use Syro-Malabar Church. The Vatican occasionally addresses the 'Synod of Bishops of the Syro-Malabar Major Archiepiscopal Church', but refers to the church as a whole as the Syro-Malabar Church when doing so, as seen in this 2022 papal document.
  • All circulars published by the church since at least January 2023 ([11], [12], [13], [14]) have exclusively used Syro-Malabar Church when addressing the church.
  • The press releases from the church itself–rather than the subordinate media commission–that are published on its website ([15], [16]) all use Syro-Malabar Church
  • Kerala Catholic Bishops' Council: Describes the church as the Syro-Malabar Church 15 times, referring to it as The Syro-Malabar Major Archiepiscopal Church only once in the heading of a subsection about it first getting a major archbishop.
  • The Supreme Court of India (2023): Legally describes the church as the Syro Malabar Church (no hyphen).
  • The High Court of Kerala (2019): Legally describes the church as the Syro Malabar Church (no hyphen).

The evidence is quite clear that legally and officially, Syro-Malabar Church is the dominant official name. Variation is present, but suggesting that the official name is Syro-Malabar Major Archiepiscopal Church when almost all official sources (both internal and external) favor something else is incorrect. ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:16, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: the above discussion section can be viewed above for the basis of this RfC. ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:30, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

• Syro-Malabar Major Archiepiscopal Church - the official long name or full name

Syro-Malabar Church - the common name.

Both these names are simultaneously proper to the church. The commonly used name is obviously the shorter 'Syro-Malabar Church'. However, the official full name is 'Syro-Malabar Major Archiepiscopal Church' as you can see in the The Particular Laws of the Syro-Malabar Church published in the Bulletin of the Syro-Malabar Major Archiepiscopal Church 2003. This document has the full name mentioned about 74 times. The full name is found in almost all articles of the church laws and all official activities of the church such as appointments, press releases etc.Logosx127 (talk) 00:33, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

• Press releases and official letter heads
  • The official letterhead of the Syro-Malabar Media Commission, which is the organ of the SMC responsible for the media, has the full name only. SYRO-MALABAR MEDIA COMMISSION
    SYRO-MALABAR MAJOR ARCHIEPISCOPAL CHURCH[17]
  • Similarly, the Syro-Malabar Public Affairs Commission Letterhead says: SYRO-MALABAR MAJOR ARCHIEPISCOPAL CHURCH
    PUBLIC AFFAIRS COMMISSION.[18]
• Letters from the 'Holy See' has the full name mentioned in nearly all legal/official actions such as confirmation of various appointments etc.
  • [19][20]

From the above official documents, including the particular laws of the Church, it is clear that the longer is indeed the official name. It is associated with the church's current juridical and canonical status of being a major archiepiscopal sui juris church. It can be compared to names of other churches such as Syriac Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch (actually the Syriac Orthodox Church itself), Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria, Syriac Catholic Patriarchate of Antioch, Ecumenical Patriarchate etc. Likewise if the SM church was headed by a patriarch, the full name might be 'Syro-Malabar Patriarchal Church'. Logosx127 (talk) 01:08, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Again, the only time the Vatican uses Syro-Malabar Major Archiepiscopal Church is when writing out the name of the 'Synod of Bishops of the Syro-Malabar Archiepiscopal Church'. It calls the church only Syro-Malabar Church. The letterhead of a single commission of the church is not enough to outweigh the larger number of documents from the church's highest authorities, the Vatican, and its official name in secular legal documents. ~ Pbritti (talk) 01:00, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

It is evident that the 'Syro-Malabar Church' is the shorter proper name, hence it explains why it is more common. The full name 'Syro-Malabar Major Archiepiscopal Church' is used by the Vatican only in association with the Synod because that is the only case that officially involves the Vatican. The Synod of Bishops does the election of bishops and decide on the liturgy which then has to be confirmed by the Pope. Meanwhile you can read the full name being used in association with almost all aspects and organs of the church in its Particular laws provide above (nearly all articles). Logosx127 (talk) 01:14, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

To write explicitly that one is the official name, one or more sources are needed that explicitly says A or B is the official name. Senorangel (talk) 03:17, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

From my understanding of policy, I think the more recognisable name should be the article title.

Is it possible to use the shorter name as the article title and keep the longer name in parentheses in the lead paragraph?

If someone searches for the longer name, can you redirect it to the article with the shorter name?

For example, when I search for 'Tupac,' I'm taken to the article that includes his full name (Tupac Shakur). LeónGonsalvesofGoa (talk) 03:45, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

The more common name is usually used as the article's title. Yes, other longer or shorter names can be included in the lead paragraph, and their search results can be redirects. Senorangel (talk) 04:00, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

By that logic, I think 'Syro-Malabar Church' should be the article title. LeónGonsalvesofGoa (talk) 04:05, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

This conversation appears to be a misunderstanding of what this RfC is about. It's not about the article's name, it's about whether sources indicate that "Syro-Malabar Major Archiepiscopal Church" is the church's official name (they don't). ~ Pbritti (talk) 05:02, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Noted, after reviewing the documents above, I feel the majority of the sources support the shorter name as the official name. LeónGonsalvesofGoa (talk) 03:19, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

• I think it is a mistake to think a church has an "official" name in the Catholic sense. A church is particular to a specific group, and it is the group that has canonical recognition. How the group is addressed is a secondary matter. In this context, the group is the Syro-Malabar community. They constitute a church, and are properly called the "Syro-Malabar Church". They are more specically organized as a major archdiocese, so they are also properly called the "Syro-Malabar Major Archepiscopal Church". Both names are fully accurate, and may be registered as legal or "official" in various contexts. I don't think you will find an official name defined by canon law, only canonical recognition of the group by describing it with varying levels of specificity due to context. –Zfish118^⋉talk 21:53, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

• Shorter name, for various reasons, including to remain consistent with the other Eastern Catholic Church page titles.

natemup (talk) 08:33, 24 September 2024 (UTC)